00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:03Copeland and I'm here today with Jeff
00:05stump and Giacinto who are from our
00:08executive talent team which means and
00:10I'll let you guys explain what it means
00:12but my understanding is you guys know
00:13everything about building teams at the
00:15executive level and so we're here to
00:18talk about that today welcome guys thank
00:21I hear you guys talk about this a lot
00:24and others and one of the things that
00:26startups always grapple with is this
00:28kind of notion of fit we're gonna hire
00:31somebody we're gonna bring them into our
00:32little family we want to make sure that
00:34they're gonna be a good member of the
00:36family but how important is fit and then
00:39I thought to get into how like is there
00:42a method and a process for something
00:44that's so squishy yeah no there's
00:46definitely a method to the madness and
00:47you know fit fit means many things fit
00:50there's fit around the role right and
00:53can this person be effective and have
00:58success in the role and then there's
01:00there's fit when people talk about fit
01:02around culture right and so two
01:04different totall two totally different
01:06things to evaluate for two just very
01:10different dimensions and a candidate and
01:12so if you're a young company how should
01:16you go about I guess analyzing for it
01:19before I mentioned there's kind of like
01:21at a height at the highest level there's
01:23there's two dimensions there's the
01:24cultural fit and then there's the the
01:26position and role fit I generally
01:29believe there's like there's in the role
01:32category there's there's expectations
01:35right that have to be aligned there's a
01:40certain alignment of motivations and
01:43then the byproduct of those two things
01:46is really fit right so to go a little
01:49bit further for example you hire a VP of
01:52Sales an alignment of expectations is
01:55that VPS that bps sales thought you know
01:58coming in they could hire 20 reps the
02:01CEO and his mind had ten reps right bad
02:06fit right there's misalignment of
02:07expectations and we all of a sudden now
02:12they're trying to figure out like
02:13there's a misalignment of what you need
02:15me to do with the resources that I have
02:17and that could be a misalignment that
02:19could say that founder could walk away
02:21from that conversations like oh this guy
02:23just doesn't get it he doesn't
02:24understand that we're hands-on culture
02:26we're a start-up we don't have the
02:27resources so boom all of a sudden we
02:31have a misalignment of expectations
02:35motivations is a whole different
02:37category it's like you know what are
02:39what are the motivations of an executive
02:41coming into a company like what do they
02:43want to go build that they want to
02:44really build a hundred-year company are
02:48they more interested in making money you
02:50know very coin-operated executives out
02:52there and depending on the CEO like you
02:55know maybe that founder CEO is
02:57interested in flipping their company in
02:58two years well you might want to have
03:00someone that's not interested in
03:02building something for the long term you
03:03could have a misalignment of of
03:05motivations of coming on board and so
03:08again it's it's that's the byproduct of
03:10those two that usually end up saying
03:13well they just weren't a good fit for
03:15these for these reasons something that's
03:18important is back to the culture piece
03:20and fit around hiring your leadership
03:22team probably in an early-stage company
03:25there's a lot of engineers and R&D is
03:27king and if you are going to hire a
03:29leader in another discipline that being
03:32sales or marketing or finance for that
03:34matter the the company the CEO has to be
03:36prepared that the culture might change a
03:38little little bit and they want to
03:39control the culture to some degree but
03:41they also have to embrace that a sales
03:43guy might come in hire a bunch of sales
03:45reps and therefore they're building a
03:47bit of a go to market culture so it's
03:49just important that expectations around
03:52that the culture might change isn't just
03:54as important those expectations around
03:56the job yeah not that it might change
03:59but that it will right yeah
04:00we've got bean counters and people with
04:02big watches in there all of a sudden
04:04right maybe not these days but Glengarry
04:07Glen Ross Jeff what about the culture
04:09side of things yeah you know I recently
04:11met an executive at a well-known
04:13ecommerce company and the company's been
04:17public for a long time and he was
04:20talking about he was talking about
04:22culture and I'm like well what does
04:23culture mean to you and we
04:25down this rathole and the the conclusion
04:29was this gentleman thought the company
04:31got further away from its core values
04:34because they over many years hired
04:37people that really weren't passionate
04:39about what the company did right and I
04:41found I found this really fascinating
04:44and there's there's definitely companies
04:46in our portfolio like Brian Chesky at
04:48Airbnb that that care deeply about the
04:53interest of people that are joining
04:57Arabi that they they believe in the
04:58movement they believe in the cause and
05:00as I think back some of the hires that
05:04haven't worked out it's like where were
05:06these executives all in were they all in
05:08on what this company was actually trying
05:11to do and you could have mostly you can
05:13associate that with consumer brands but
05:15you meet you meet great enterprise
05:18executives and like networking storage
05:20wireless security one executive met
05:24recently he's like I'm a plumber right
05:26you know like I love building
05:27infrastructure and like he believed in
05:31his bones when he said this statement
05:32and like you could give you chills like
05:34he just loves building storage and and
05:36it was a virtualization I'm guessing
05:39he's met our partner Peter Levine yeah
05:43so so any rate like I you know I didn't
05:46I would encourage any hiring manager to
05:49test for that and like do they they they
05:52really believe in the company otherwise
05:54it's just a job and and our young
05:57companies you got to believe in the
05:59mission yeah and so I get that
06:01intellectually but it sounds to me like
06:03it's one thing kind of wanting for that
06:06wanting to have that but then actually
06:08testing for it and and checking it to
06:11make sure it's there how do you possibly
06:14do that yeah those things are I think
06:16those things are pretty interesting like
06:18for example you know I wouldn't show
06:21personally I wouldn't show up to
06:22Pinterest without having used interests
06:25right I wouldn't show up to eBay without
06:27having used eBay like if they ask me if
06:29I use the platform I'm sitting there mmm
06:32yet right I would more or less look like
06:35an idiot so I think just one you know
06:38what's there what's their usage of of a
06:41consumer platform and then how you test
06:44for it is this like are they deep
06:46thinkers right are they deep thinkers
06:47around using the technology whether it
06:50be an infrastructure or enterprise or in
06:52the consumer and are they futuristic
06:55thinkers around it like do they have the
06:57are they thinking long term where this
06:59industry is going and that's fairly
07:01obvious when you get into an interview
07:03like can they can they articulate what
07:06they see in the future around this
07:08particular technology in our world yeah
07:11gyah how do you check for that sort of
07:14all-in mess for executives I mean it
07:19yeah some of it is just the exterior and
07:22how excited they they present themselves
07:24however with all the disruption that's
07:26happening in technology and healthcare
07:28and education and financial services
07:30like I'm seeing people out of eBay you
07:33know want to go to some health tech
07:35startup because maybe their father has
07:39diabetes or something which is something
07:41Omata is tackling but you know I when
07:44someone has maybe a personal story
07:46around why particular technology is of
07:49interest to them you know there's I test
07:51for the personal side I guess that's
07:53what I'm trying to say right yeah that's
07:54a really good point because we had will
07:58leave the portfolio company out of it
08:00but we have an executive joining one of
08:02our companies and she's she's leaving a
08:06six to seven million dollar annual
08:10package on the table to go through this
08:12thing and like what better what better
08:16example do you need like and it wasn't a
08:19difficult decision for her like she just
08:20believes like she wants to do something
08:22that's gonna make this place a better
08:24place to live right and the fact that
08:26she's walking away from it is is pretty
08:30amazing well okay so that's one thing
08:32and it sounds to me like you want that
08:34commitment and that passion in an
08:36executive coming into a role but then
08:39there's all these other parts of that
08:42comprised culture and fit and how do you
08:45then what's the process that especially
08:47if I haven't done this before how do you
08:49help people make sure that they stand
08:52the best chance of you know beyond the
08:54passion beyond the like yes I believe in
08:56this that it's gonna work with my team
08:58and with my people already there and
09:00actually not just my team today but sort
09:02of the way we want to go in the in the
09:04future you're talking as someone joining
09:06the company or as a CEO hiring as a CEO
09:09hiring yeah 100-day plan yeah do you
09:11want to comment well I mean we always
09:14are we're very passionate about this
09:17thing called a hundred day plan some
09:19call it 90-day plans I'm call it a six
09:22month plan but um part speaking directly
09:24to process and for any CEO hiring
09:27manager that's gearing up to make a very
09:30important hire is is asking their final
09:33candidate before you extend an offer to
09:35create a 100-day plan invite the
09:39finalists to your Monday morning staff
09:41meeting if you have a management team
09:42that you know in some cases some of our
09:44portfolios don't have a management team
09:46so it could just be a discussion between
09:48the CEO and the final candidate but more
09:51importantly if if you do invite your
09:53staff I think the dynamics are really
09:54different when someone's presenting what
09:57they're going to do the first hundred
09:59days on the job how magical is it to in
10:02some ways simulate what this what it's
10:06going to be like to have this person
10:08around your executive round table as a
10:09CEO right where to my earlier points
10:13having this person come in and present
10:16their budget their hiring plan you know
10:19they're go to market strategy how
10:22they're gonna tackle company issues and
10:24to and more importantly to hear that and
10:27does that does that align with what we
10:30thought was actually in the world is
10:32this aligned to what we call the
10:33outcomes of what we needed in this
10:35higher to have some congruence on what
10:40they think and what we think needs to be
10:42done alignment of expectations check the
10:45BOK check the box now motivations like
10:49you know did we did we hear this passion
10:53desire to actually build something
10:55really sustaining I'm interested in
10:58building a hundred eight hundred year
11:00100 year company and you know a BPO
11:03sales talks about developing you know a
11:06training a training program for all
11:08salespeople building a university for
11:10training people they think the way we
11:12think and then as CEO to step back and
11:15see the interaction with his with this
11:18potential higher among all my executive
11:21team and to see the to see the the body
11:26language to see the the interaction
11:28between these folks it's it's hard to
11:32it's it's hard to do this any other way
11:34because a typical interview process is
11:36gonna have you having mr. candidate meet
11:39with candidate with executive one two
11:41three and four all those guys are gonna
11:43be in siloed beatings and you're gonna
11:45get different feedback from from all
11:48them but as CEO to step back and have
11:50this get-together where you talk about
11:52what this person wants to do is it can
11:55be can be what I call just extremely
11:58magical and when you have like candidate
12:02you come out of that very rarely do we
12:04have our portfolios company CEOs come
12:07out and saying this is still close race
12:09so you're trying to pull them out of
12:11that sort of more formal and in some
12:14ways artificial interview process and
12:15get them into the actual flow of like
12:17here's what it's like to be at this
12:18company has anyone ever balked at that I
12:20mean it sounds like it's a lot of work
12:22if you're the candidate you know like
12:24wait I got a job here or maybe I don't
12:26have a job like I don't work for you
12:27guys yet yeah is that okay does sound
12:30doesn't sound like a very motivated kid
12:31yeah and you know that's a great
12:34question because so many candidates say
12:39you know gia they asked me to do this
12:41hundred a thing and I'm like right and
12:43you should and they're like but what do
12:44I do and I mean I think to some degree
12:46some of them are afraid that whatever
12:49content they put down may be incorrect
12:52and I assure them listen think of this
12:56as if you're on the job number one
12:58obviously number two you went through an
13:00interview process and you heard what
13:02everyone's expectation was about what
13:05role to do so incorporate that into it
13:08incorporate your budget incorporate your
13:09hiring plan you know just the basics
13:11don't like overdo it because there
13:13should be room for a like a
13:14whiteboarding session is part of that
13:16hunter day plan which okay here's a
13:18bullet point but then let's elaborate on
13:19it so um I kind of give them that advice
13:24and it sort of changes their thinking
13:26not to be scared if the content is wrong
13:29then chances are expectations are
13:32misaligned at that company right if you
13:35are translating what you heard in the
13:37interview process into this plan right
13:39then it's wrong yeah I mean again if
13:42I've never worked in this industry or at
13:45this company and maybe I might get some
13:47things wrong is it but what if there's
13:49like another but we work together so
13:51well it turns out like everything I
13:52suggested was completely in the wrong
13:54direction but boy it's a phenomenal
13:57point don't you want to freaking know
13:58that before taking the job what if
14:00you're thinking something completely
14:02different right so I the what the one
14:04example that's great it was one of the
14:07first times we did this almost five
14:09years ago now and I'll leave out the
14:12names but the CEO had called me back and
14:17said he was a hundred percent wrong in
14:21terms of what he was thinking around
14:23around messaging and strategy but I want
14:28to hire him I loved them right and the
14:30whole team thought that way we got in
14:32this big heated debate why are you
14:34thinking this way the way he handled
14:35himself his thought process to leading
14:38up to this point up to the plan that he
14:40presented was amazing so even though he
14:43was up 180 degrees off terms of where we
14:46should be going he did a phenomenal job
14:48and to this day like it was the guy's
14:51been in the job for about five years and
14:53doing a great job so the important part
14:54of that wasn't so much like he had the
14:56right I guess 100 a plan like okay next
15:01month we're gonna do this and we're
15:02gonna fire these people but that he was
15:04what just more integrated in the team he
15:06had the right thought process he had it
15:08and and you know Trump yes being right
15:11the methodology was was right on and in
15:13fact like who's to say that he would
15:16if he wouldn't have done this he would
15:17have gotten in the job and would have
15:19been completely in disarray it's like oh
15:21 my first meeting yeah and it went
15:24terribly wrong and and what if the team
15:27didn't have the confidence in him at
15:28that point so the fact that this was
15:30this this was this played out before the
15:33guy was actually hired was was why it
15:36actually made it work and to piggyback
15:38on that if you think about it it is also
15:43an opportunity again assuming everything
15:46goes well and the person gets hired that
15:47this person has a win the first hundred
15:50days we cannot tell you how important it
15:51is that an executive both professionally
15:54and personally has a win in those first
15:5730 60 90 days and part of the plan helps
16:00gain the win and the win helps you a
16:03assimilate in gives you a little
16:05self-esteem and it just we find I think
16:08the stick rate is a little higher of
16:10success in people staying in the job
16:11longer when they have a win those first
16:13hundred days yeah and how often do
16:16people then just deploy the hundred a
16:18plan like okay I got the job and that
16:19could happens all the time next hundred
16:21days you know it was about six months
16:24ago a VP of HR that was hired under one
16:27of these it would not done these before
16:28walked into my office and she's like I
16:31literally laid my hundred a game plan on
16:34my desk on the first day of the job and
16:36just started at it shake it was great
16:37like I knew what I was doing like no one
16:39had to tell me anything like already I
16:41already had buy-in from the management
16:43team as to what they wanted me to do we
16:45had a company portfolio recently that
16:49has is a big fan of the hundred a plan
16:51and had two final candidates for VP
16:54sales search and and was actually just
16:56gonna fast-track the guy the number one
16:59candidate because everything was just
17:00perfect and then started doing
17:02references and something was eating at
17:04the CEO and he was almost gonna make him
17:07an offer without doing it and and sort
17:08of checked himself and and went ahead
17:10and did the hundred a plan and then did
17:12the hundred a plan with the runner-up
17:14candidate and which helped him make the
17:16hiring decision to go with the the first
17:19guy that he was going to go with but I
17:21think if he hadn't done the hundred a
17:23plan you know we wouldn't have I think
17:27guessing second-guessing himself a
17:29little bit right how do you know though
17:32then 100-day plan goes well there seems
17:34to be fit when do you know at some point
17:37though that actually it's working like
17:39how long afterwards that this is really
17:41this was the the right hire or the wrong
17:44hire for that matter hmm
17:45well usually we don't get a phone call
17:52that's a good thing so how do you know
17:56what's working well you know just you we
17:59check in we're checking in almost weekly
18:01after after the hires taking place and
18:04is there is there goodness happening and
18:08you you almost hear a certain level of
18:11conviction you hear conviction when the
18:14hire is made but then you have this like
18:16over-the-top conviction it's like oh my
18:19god I know I was totally right and then
18:22you know there's a honeymoon period and
18:23as we call it and then you know that
18:26rubber rubber usually meets the road I
18:28would say in month three month four
18:31we're like is is this person usually and
18:34usually are they doing a good job and to
18:37Gia's point the great examples are like
18:40they had a win right and when when we're
18:43when we're hearing that conviction in
18:44the voice of a founder CEO it's like man
18:46they just hired this guy from this
18:48company or they just hired an amazing
18:51sales rep and recruited her out of this
18:53company and and like you you hear this
18:57win that happened that is either a
18:59transformational hire or it's a like a
19:03transformational impact on the business
19:05and you know one of the amazing examples
19:08was really at lift with the hire of
19:11Brian Roberts and had an immediate
19:14impact with Logan and John early on like
19:18within weeks they called up and said
19:21this guy has been transformational to
19:23our visit and Brian's had enough what
19:24for left so he was he was hired for Corp
19:27dev and business development and they
19:30and then they also gave him the CFO job
19:32right what about the flip side when it's
19:35not working I was thinking about that
19:37like when has it not worked and there
19:39are two scenarios that's
19:41dick out and I have to say and Jeff if
19:44you have more to comment um one in
19:46particular was you know the guy got
19:50under the hood and there was a lot of
19:52dysfunction that was happening in the
19:54company that that there was no way as a
19:59candidate that he would have been made
20:01aware of unless he got there you know
20:04and and so I mean so that was that was
20:07just sort of a bad situation and the
20:09other situation was um was in in
20:12marketing in particular where the role
20:14was sort of divided I'm not sure the
20:16person was set up for success because
20:17they came in as the CMO but the product
20:20marketing group was sitting somewhere
20:21else and I just there wasn't enough
20:24synergy between the two groups so for
20:26what it's worth sometimes I think you
20:30know if it's an org design issue or you
20:33know some real bad stuff under the hood
20:36they are none of that happens in our
20:38portfolio versa you see Matthew
20:40McConaughey and failure to launch so
20:43that's usually what I see there's there
20:46is we go through this under day game
20:48plan everything goes brilliant we want
20:50to hire and then like like right doesn't
20:54it doesn't happen for whatever reason
20:57there's like this like they become
20:59paralyzed or that's what I call it
21:01there's literally a failure to launch in
21:03the company and you maybe it's a
21:06personal issue maybe it's you know
21:10buyer's remorse getting into the company
21:12something usually happens on average
21:15these are real-life people like we
21:17talked about candidates and you know
21:19what sometimes feels like we're trading
21:21baseball cards an executive town and
21:23like hey I'll trade you this guy for
21:24this guy so like these are people and
21:27perfect they're not perfect and
21:29something happens personally right right
21:31and they don't bring it up and so like I
21:34would encourage and it's usually like a
21:36taboo topic so they get into a job and
21:40something happens to the spouse or
21:42something happens to a grandmother and
21:44throws everything in a disarray and
21:46they're not able to really focus and the
21:49unique thing about a start-up there is
21:52right I mean there's nowhere to hide you
21:54know you can't you can't crawl under a
21:56desk like you're completely exposed as
21:58an executive and I in a young company
22:00because everything's your fault and in
22:03something that distracts you like that
22:05can can lead to a failure to launch what
22:09do you advise candidates when they're
22:12walking into a new company or a new
22:14opportunity to look for in terms of
22:17their own fit hopefully most executives
22:20have their filters figured out but you
22:23know not all of them do so so I hear
22:29people say I just want to know I can
22:30have dinner with the CEO he's someone I
22:32want to go out and have a drink with
22:33well you know it's not always fun and
22:36games right so you know I think they
22:39want to be empowered as an executive and
22:41they want to know that the CEO is going
22:42to empower them to do their job and in
22:45in some of the cases with a lot of our
22:47founders being first-time operators I
22:49think they actually are learning
22:53themselves so some of my advices also be
22:57prepared to be an educator to some
22:59founders not all but but I think knowing
23:02that part of your job is not just
23:04execution and strategy it is also being
23:06somewhat of a teacher is been I think
23:10some good advice it's it's given them a
23:12little extra patience to some degree
23:14what else would you say yeah I mean the
23:16the same advice that applies to a CEO or
23:20any hiring manager hiring someone
23:22alignment of motivations alignment of
23:25expectations that knife cuts both ways
23:27right so a lot of my advice to
23:30executives that are embarking on a
23:32process what are you motivated by and
23:35like are you guys truly aligned around
23:38what they need you to do right if you
23:41can't if you can't articulate to me now
23:43what I've actually have had executives
23:45I'm like well what do they need you to
23:46do and they honestly and these are smart
23:50MBA executives they they really couldn't
23:53articulate to me what that company what
23:55the real Charter was and they were still
23:58going after it it was like yeah you know
24:00it's a little fuzzy but I'm super
24:01excited about the company I'm like holy
24:03right so like again the same the same
24:06falah the same methodology in in that
24:11that companies are interviewing for
24:14these four potential executive coming in
24:16use these same philosophies like are we
24:18are we aligned across what I want to do
24:21at my passion about the company am i
24:23motivated by the role and and what we're
24:25going to be building here and is there
24:27alignment around the expectations coming
24:30into the role I you know I don't want to
24:32put words in your mouth but from what
24:34I'm hearing from you guys it sounds like
24:35this fit and you know as it sort of fits
24:39in with culture is probably one of the
24:41most important things that a company if
24:42not the most important I don't know how
24:44you I mean in in the calculus for both
24:47sides for a hiring CEO and also for the
24:51executive there's cop there's location
24:53there's you know do I get a nice chair
24:56but like what do you think really that
24:58people should be valuing on both sides
25:00and is this it yeah I think cult the
25:03culture word gets thrown out and way too
25:06much because I mean I think you can ask
25:08a lot of companies what their culture is
25:10and they're gonna get a thousand
25:12different responses you have you have an
25:14overriding culture then you have
25:15department by the department by
25:17department could be very different your
25:18sales group could act very differently
25:20and have different cultural values than
25:23your marketing our engineering
25:24department so to me is it's really
25:26fluffy word and and to me it's like it
25:29gets down to almost kind of traditions
25:32and like I think there's traditions and
25:34companies that they uphold and they look
25:36to people coming in to kind of uphold
25:40those same sort of traditions like we
25:43pull all-nighters when we need to if
25:44that's not if that's not in your toolkit
25:47don't apply alright so there's that's
25:50just one example I think traditions of
25:52companies are are kind of more more
25:55demonstrate what the company's about
25:57then what they perceive their their
25:58cultural values to be you know I asked
26:02executives when I meet them if they've
26:05had a decade or two decades of
26:06experience what was your favorite job
26:08just one pick one and there's always a
26:10favorite job and whatever that job was
26:14are the same things that you need to
26:15look for in as you're looking on your
26:18next opportunity and it always is the
26:21people that they worked with so does go
26:23back to the fit and that's the fuzzy
26:25part of culture so it's the people
26:26what's what's happening a lot these days
26:29is someone that's been in a company and
26:31has had great great growth experienced
26:33great success and they leave to go do
26:36something earlier and they're looking
26:37for that exact same type of opportunity
26:40and and it doesn't happen and why
26:43doesn't it happen I think they went too
26:47quickly they didn't do their due
26:48diligence they didn't you know it does
26:50move really fast here in the valley and
26:52so they skip some of the steps as a
26:55candidate they skip some of the steps
26:56that they normally would have they
26:57didn't do the references on the CEO
27:01mminton things and they find themselves
27:03not so happy in a year and they sort of
27:06wonder why and they expect that they're
27:09gonna have the same experience that they
27:10had prior which is like very hard to do
27:14and repeat over and over again so no and
27:18I think it's harder for some of the
27:21high-flying companies like everyone
27:23wants to work at them so whether it's a
27:25Pinterest or an Arab you like the
27:26notable consumer companies everyone's
27:28interested in working and it's hard for
27:30those guys because like how do you know
27:32this person's really joining you know
27:34because they they like the company or
27:36they just want to be part of a
27:37high-flyer right and something that I've
27:40been encouraging and there's definitely
27:43a won't name names but there's there's
27:45companies with that been on the
27:47precipice of not working out but
27:49survived and it's it's now part of their
27:54culture like they look for these
27:55executives that are not only there for
27:58the good times but they're there the
28:00best executives are the ones that are
28:02there for the bad times and so the fact
28:05that they can they look for that now in
28:08people's backgrounds and that's you know
28:10call it call it culture fit or whatever
28:12they want to see where this person's
28:14been stretched beat up beat down and
28:17come back like Rocky and and and
28:20succeeded and they interview for that
28:22now it's interesting I mean as a company
28:25that's got some miles under its belt you
28:27see how you could recognize those things
28:30but it also sounds to me like as a
28:32start-up you need to start kind of
28:34looking for those as well like from day
28:36one you're establishing traditions and
28:38you may not even realize it so no pun
28:41well I encourage everyone to look for
28:43fit sounds like fit equals a fair bit of
28:46happiness on all sides so yeah Jeff and
28:49Jia thank you guys so much thank you
