00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland there is an increasing interest
00:05among companies small and large in
00:07putting together technical advisory
00:09boards it sounds pretty straightforward
00:11get some senior technical experts to
00:14help with the technical speedbumps but
00:17if that is all your technical advisory
00:18board is you are missing out built and
00:21utilized correctly a technical advisory
00:23board can be a huge advantage when it
00:25comes to mapping out a long term
00:27strategic plan finding talent and
00:29building a great engineering culture on
00:32this segment of the a 16 z podcast we
00:34break down the right way to build a
00:36technical advisory board what you should
00:39expect from the board and just as
00:41important what you shouldn't and for
00:43those looking to serve on a technical
00:44advisory board the reasons to do it as
00:47well as the things to consider before
00:49committing the conversation features for
00:53purnima padmanaban former CEO of kaverin
00:56alex rotor from twitter arnie goldberg
00:59from paypal and a 16 ZJ neural partner
01:02Peter Levine Peter Levine starts us off
01:06I was talking earlier with with a couple
01:09of folks and one of the things you know
01:11this notion of technical advisory board
01:13I first want to clarify that there's a
01:16difference between a technical advisory
01:18board and a board advisor okay so for
01:21those of you just so we're clear here a
01:23board advisor is somebody who serves
01:25with the board of directors typically
01:27you'd have venture capitalists on the
01:29board and then some third party another
01:32person who might be a board adviser come
01:34and be on the board of the company so
01:36we're not talking about that now the
01:39other I'm on the board of lots of
01:42different companies here at a 16z and I
01:47often talk and maybe I'll start open up
01:49the sort of panel here I often talk with
01:53entrepreneurs that I serve with about a
01:57customer advisory board and here we're
01:59now talking about a technical advisory
02:01board so maybe I don't know if you guys
02:04have some views on kind of the
02:06differences between one of those and the
02:08other I know we're here to talk about a
02:09technical advisory board but then I
02:11talked about customer
02:12do we have two of those and like what's
02:14the difference should we think about one
02:17maybe just we can start okay go ahead
02:21yeah so a box we had we have both and
02:25they're very very different so the the
02:29audience or the the population of your
02:31customer advisory board or really what
02:34you would expect to sell to right so in
02:37box this case would be the CIOs of big
02:40companies across different verticals
02:42that would be interesting to penetrate
02:43into and they really should inform your
02:46roadmap from a product point of view at
02:48least that's the way we looked at them
02:49and that's how they served us so they
02:52could be customers or they existing
02:54customers or potential customers but
02:56that was really the point then on the
02:59technical advisory board it's very clear
03:01at least for me what I wanted out of
03:03that board it's important to understand
03:05why you actually want a technical
03:06advisory board and and that influences
03:09who you get on there I needed technical
03:11problems too to get solved and not that
03:15I couldn't solve them within the teams
03:16that I had but a lot of it was I needed
03:18smart people from the outside that
03:20didn't have a lot of vested interest in
03:22the solution or working to be there
03:23necessarily to to deal with the
03:25consequences to just bring some informed
03:28opinions from their experience into some
03:30some tough technical choices so to me
03:33pretty distinct difference yeah so I
03:38have had primarily customer advisory
03:40board but what I found was once you've
03:43formed an advisory board and by the way
03:45when you're starting out even though
03:46it's a custom you call it a customer
03:49none of them are your customers then
03:51actually turns out to be great because
03:53you're getting a lot of feedback from
03:56the customers as you said on the use
03:58case on the pain points does the
04:00solution even make sense but then I
04:02found the same advisory board customer
04:05advisory board would nominate some
04:08technical folks from their teams to
04:10actually participate in let us say a
04:13beta or an alpha or even early feedback
04:17so some of the best requirements are
04:19gotten detailed technical requirements
04:21like multi-factor authentication how do
04:23you want to build it in an organ in your
04:26from customers who nominated technical
04:29folks and then with those nominated
04:31technical folks then become part of
04:32become the basis of a technical advisory
04:35board yes I mean Mikey became yeah a
04:39basis of a informal Technical Advisory
04:42Board but it was kind of connected to
04:44the customer advisory board huh yeah
04:46I've only ever been on one just the
04:48technical advisory board but I would say
04:49even if you know that you want that just
04:51be really clear I would right start
04:53everyone that raised their hand saying
04:54they're thinking about forming one would
04:56you start by writing down what what
04:57you're trying to accomplish that's just
04:58a thing that people do and it's an
05:01outcome but I would what is the thing
05:03that you think you need a technological
05:04board for and be very clear on that and
05:05maybe it'll lead you down the road of a
05:07customer advisory board instead I don't
05:08know but I think there's being super
05:10crisp on what you're trying to do is
05:11where I would start and then you figure
05:14out the right so Alex maybe just on that
05:16like what was asked of you when you
05:19joined the technical advisory board and
05:21then how did expectation versus reality
05:24actually pan out yeah that's a great
05:26question I think it varies a lot I mean
05:28I think a lot of companies create these
05:29and they don't quite know exactly what
05:31maybe it evolved over time but in some
05:35cases it's formal meetings where you sit
05:38down and you learn a bunch about the
05:39architecture and you're asked specific
05:40questions and then you can kind of
05:43comment on that with various degrees to
05:45follow up over time in other cases it's
05:47really much more one-off things and
05:49there's an ax board but it's more years
05:50being an adviser some earlier stage
05:52companies that the founders themselves
05:53aren't technical done a lot of things
05:55around try to help you know they're
05:57trying to hire the first engineer but
05:58they have no idea how to do that so even
06:00things like don't man when you get her
06:01profile hey is this this person the
06:04clown or not does this even make any
06:05sense I don't know how to read code well
06:07you know what are you thinking I could
06:08to poke around try to give advice on
06:11that source oh I think it varies a lot
06:12and sometimes those companies grow into
06:14more formal things and did you find that
06:17the expectation was about the same
06:19unreal I guess are there any surprises
06:21like they came up on I think everyone is
06:23surprised and I really think that's it's
06:27it's such a blanket term that can mean
06:28almost anything right that I'll just ask
06:30the specific person creating it what are
06:32you trying to do how can I be helpful
06:35so Arne maybe along those lines when you
06:38did this at box what were you hoping to
06:40get out of your advisory board and did
06:43it you know did did you get out of it
06:46what you thought yeah did it work so
06:49yeah I joined box at the end of 2009
06:51we're 10 engineers and yeah through
06:55subsequent rounds of funding over the
06:58 got serious really really quickly
07:00and so I needed some help in arbitrating
07:05some pretty deep technical choices and
07:09architectural choices what one good
07:12example would be so without giving too
07:16much away about box obviously it's about
07:18you know cloud storage but what's
07:22interesting underneath that is the
07:23permissioning is a waterfall
07:25permissioning and so to to actually
07:28model that you know you could go down a
07:31path is saying there's a graph right and
07:33that graph is actually represented in
07:35something like neo4j right so so a
07:37persistence model could be neo4j but it
07:40was built on lamb so six months went by
07:43and this debate raged within our
07:46engineering team and even as we hired
07:47you know more senior people to come in
07:49and and the debate wouldn't go away all
07:51it took was one formal conversation with
07:55some of the as I created this this this
07:58architecture board this advisory board
08:01for people from the outside that would
08:03come in give them context as quickly as
08:06possible around the problem and they had
08:09a lot of seniority and experience and
08:11actually going down the path of some of
08:13these choices quickly we realized we
08:16need to go down a more tried-and-true
08:18path versus another path so for me you
08:21know those were seminal choices and
08:24Forks in the road where it could have
08:25been pretty disastrous if we went down
08:27some some more experimental choices as
08:29the company was scaling real quickly and
08:32while in my role as VP of engineering
08:36for box trying to scale the company I
08:37had a co-founding CTO that didn't want
08:41to manage any more that's basically how
08:42I got into box at the very beginning we
08:46had a good relationship but he was
08:48very much a shiny object type of person
08:52so wanted to explore new technologies
08:53but was pragmatic enough to actually
08:56listen to to other people and so I knew
09:00I wouldn't be able to get to an answer
09:02internally without maybe some some
09:04external people that he respected
09:06forming or helping him form his opinion
09:08so that that's how I use them right
09:11purnima you you've set up several tabs
09:15and I'm just curious on the structure
09:19that you know like how many people when
09:21did you do it like here you had ten you
09:24had a Technical Advisory Board of ten
09:25people what's been your experience do
09:27they all look the same after you've set
09:29these things up they actually look
09:32different one of them was at a large
09:34company so that looked very different
09:36but for smaller company on what makes it
09:38I mean what made that was almost like as
09:41I it was not a technical advice' like a
09:43customer advisory board CIO advisory
09:45board and you meet once a quarter and
09:47then once a year you have a retreat so
09:49it's a very different structure okay but
09:52with startups and smaller companies
09:54things move very fast and so you need
09:57constant feedback and so you have this
09:59from a structure perspective six to
10:02eight members is actually works out well
10:05the other thing is your needs change so
10:08instead of having a four year term
10:11usually we have done a two year term for
10:14the advisors and then you can always
10:16renew if the advisor is still relevant
10:18to and and is providing a lot of input
10:22for another two years and if it becomes
10:26too large because one of the thought is
10:29okay if you have these advisors you can
10:31also go talk to them one-on-one and
10:34state the problem and get advice but
10:37having a board helps because you have a
10:40lot of discussion and sometimes if you
10:43can state your problem simply and
10:44clearly you'll have some debate you'll
10:46have counter opinions so that is the big
10:48advantage of having a board so if it's
10:51six to eight then you have good
10:53discussion more than that it's just here
11:01fighting with each other you know two of
11:04them don't show up at any given time I
11:08feel like it's the same guideline for
11:10basically all meetings ever so I was
11:19gonna ask you how often did you meet
11:23because that's the other factors like
11:25lemon number of people and then like
11:26limit number of meetings so what did
11:28you've what do you think is most
11:29affected I've done like twice a year
11:32done a lot of just one-off things where
11:34the whole group actually never meets
11:35maybe up on the phone or maybe otherwise
11:36you know once I mean I think honestly as
11:39someone that sits on these but has an
11:44it's the case but I think probably so
12:05for those who you want to do in a
12:07technical frequency yeah I mean I think
12:18the me I mean it goes I think goes back
12:19to the first thing I said which is
12:20figure out what you're trying to solve
12:22and then do the thing it sounds stupid
12:23when you said that where it's a
12:24tautology but if you need if one one is
12:27helpful go do that if having
12:28presentations is helpful go to that the
12:30only I have a story of something I think
12:31not to do which is I you assemble these
12:34things and make sure that you're setting
12:37the right contact if it's just you going
12:40in as the CEO or founder or head of
12:42engineering whatever it is you probably
12:43know why you're there and what you're
12:44trying to get out of it if you've been
12:46on certain ones where they've invited
12:48engineers in the company and to present
12:50something and in one case that I'm
12:52thinking of I I really got the feeling
12:54that they were a bunch of you who didn't
12:55that we're actually being productive
12:56that day and at some point on short
12:59notice were probably asked to stop being
13:01productive and make a presentation for
13:03some people they never met all of whom
13:04have like fancy titles somewhere else
13:06that they don't care about
13:07and then come in and give this
13:09presentation and I felt before like I'm
13:11just wasting a bunch of people's time
13:13like they actually don't have questions
13:14for me someone with good intentions like
13:16sort of invited them to give a talk but
13:18there's not a clear reason that I'm
13:20there to add value so we're all just
13:22older basically so if you're gonna
13:25invite other people and be really sure
13:26that they know why they're there and I
13:29mean I said on these things to help
13:30there's really no other reason like it's
13:31fun and interesting and you meet some
13:33other people and you're there to help so
13:34when people have questions I'm around
13:37and the other people are around that's
13:39why they do these sorts of things but
13:40otherwise make sure it's not a tax it's
13:42like oh it's a presentation I have to
13:44give to a bunch of people to get
13:45approval for my thing and I'm just
13:48say that's guy that's one way I think we
13:50can fail yeah Arnie maybe along those
13:52lines what you know sort of frequency of
13:55meeting which we just talked about how
13:58long should one of these meeting you
14:00know in general and then what's a what
14:02sort of a framework of how to think
14:04about the meeting to get the most impact
14:06what you would have maybe to all of you
14:08what have you found maybe the most
14:10impactful meeting you've ever had what
14:12does it look like the way I tried to
14:15structure mine and you know I sit on
14:18other advisory boards now so it's
14:20interesting to see how they're
14:22structured differently but but what I
14:23really needed was advice not just for me
14:28but for my technical leaders to to hear
14:31and a decision right in a lot of cases
14:33it's your why you actually put this
14:35meeting together it's not to present
14:37something and get approval but it's to
14:39debate a point and to debate something
14:42that that is worthwhile enough to get
14:45all these people high-powered people
14:46from across the valley or whatever into
14:49a room together and make it worth their
14:51while but also worth the while if the
14:53people are actually you know within the
14:54team to feel like we're moving forward
14:57as a company in some direction and yeah
15:00so we would get together quarterly and
15:02we would put our agendas together you
15:05know a month or so ahead of time and if
15:07we didn't have it we would delay until
15:10we had something and you know eventually
15:12your box got big enough to to where we
15:15didn't need it anymore right we actually
15:19we had enough smart people and enough of
15:22the problems were behind us to where the
15:25external advisory board has it needed so
15:27I think that's one part that became very
15:30important for me to understand what are
15:32we now just going through the motions
15:34and it's no longer actually an
15:35interesting exercise or an important
15:37exercise and it's okay to disband these
15:40things if they become it's actually
15:42people appreciate it even though the you
15:44know the the people in the room have fun
15:47hanging out with each other if there's
15:50not real actionable things that have to
15:52come out of it you're wasting everyone's
15:54time to agree you know how maybe along
15:58the lines of setting up the meeting how
16:00do you decide what gets presented to a
16:02tech advisory board versus not I mean
16:05does it is it everything is that one
16:07thing there's a VP of engineering decide
16:09like who who who creates the less and
16:13how does that come about that's an
16:16interesting one and I think something
16:19that I have learnt over the course of a
16:22few boards which is initially the
16:25tendency is you want to present and you
16:28want to kind of get validation they're
16:31nodding yes this is good and is this the
16:33right path and this is the right
16:34architecture but then you realize you're
16:37not utilizing the advisors time well
16:40most of the people who get on advisory
16:42board get on because they want to help
16:44they are passionate about the problem
16:47they want to help shape the future of
16:49your company and so the best is to pick
16:54a problem statement whatever you want to
16:57solve so you think one per mean one per
16:59meeting is what has worked best because
17:02then you give enough time number two
17:05give them a heads up on the problem
17:07statement so that they can prepare I
17:09have had some fantastic meetings albeit
17:11not one example I have is it's not
17:14necessarily a technical problem
17:16it was around how do we justify the ROI
17:20of the product to IT shop and this we
17:25sent an agenda item in fact I call it
17:28homework I was like okay this is what we
17:30are going to discuss and some of the
17:33customer advisors had actually done a
17:35survey in their organization and found
17:38out what were the metrics and it was
17:40fabulous discussion because the peer
17:43group also exchanged a lot of notes so
17:45they got value out of the meeting which
17:48was nice and we got an answer to that
17:52specific problem so when we do
17:54presentations we don't get that
17:56discussion so me my rule is mean if you
17:59are spent spending more than 10 minutes
18:01presenting you're wasting the advisors
18:03time okay it's very hard to react if
18:06someone wants to do something and they
18:08just design a presentation designed to
18:11convince you that they're doing the
18:12right thing with no comedy basically you
18:14have almost no context even as an
18:16advisor that's come around frequently
18:18it's very hard to have anything
18:20intelligent to say about that it's much
18:22better together here's the question that
18:23we're grappling with here's some context
18:26that we have let's talk about it it's
18:28much easier to be helpful and I think
18:31that's that's why you want to have
18:33diversity of experience and personality
18:39on the board as well because that
18:41conversation is where the magic happens
18:43or and so you know what happens if you
18:45have vocal advisors and so this is also
18:48where it goes back to the point about
18:51refreshing the the board every couple of
18:53years because I got advisors on that
18:57seemed great on paper but didn't
18:59contribute and so I would have loved to
19:02refresh but I didn't realize that I
19:04should probably put something in my
19:05closet to do the refresh so they stayed
19:08but where you where you really have to
19:12think about is just quickly and as
19:14deeply as possible set the context and
19:15just let them let them at it alright and
19:17so don't pressure test each other and
19:19eventually what comes out of that is
19:21something that hopefully is quite
19:23insightful for the problem so galaxy
19:26before related to this had mentioned
19:28write down what you want to get out of
19:30this thing how do you choose how do you
19:33think you know what's your advice for
19:36choosing the right members of an
19:37advisory board how should somebody maybe
19:40we can all jump into that but like how
19:42do you do it and how do you find the
19:44folks and you know to get enough to ver
19:47city versus all similar I mean what do
19:50you think you've said on a number of
19:52these that's a great question I mean
19:53it's it's not dissimilar to hiring I
19:56mean I suppose it is a form of hiring I
19:57think I've only ever sat on ones that
19:59I've been introduced to from people that
20:01I know either I know the founder
20:03something or they know someone that
20:04introduces me to someone so I think
20:06honestly doing like tapping the network
20:09of foots other 816 C companies or other
20:11companies you know is the way to meet
20:13people and gentlemen I would just just
20:15go meet the people for a coffee or
20:17something maybe even give an exam much
20:19like interviewing giving you know giving
20:20real problems that you're working on it
20:21is it is one of the better ways to
20:23understand get real signal from people
20:25so I would just talk about where the
20:26company is why you're putting it
20:27together some of the things you're
20:29grappling with and see if you feel like
20:32you walk out of the coffee smarter and
20:34if you do that's probably a good signal
20:35and you get along and some other things
20:37if you don't maybe she keep looking
20:38that's yeah I think you have to tap your
20:45your your network and your extended
20:47network yeah I brought a couple of
20:51people in that I knew personally and
20:53then there's the rest of them or
20:55second-degree connections to someone and
20:58you know the the beautiful thing about
21:00this valley is you can actually create a
21:02board of just amazing experts here
21:05that's unlike anywhere else in the world
21:06so so you know within your short notice
21:10you can actually have people assembled
21:12that that can provide you world-class
21:14advice and you know I think it does have
21:17to gel as a group you know to where you
21:21know it's all personalities sometimes
21:22pretty big personalities and you have to
21:25also make sure that you're one person
21:27isn't going to overshadow everyone
21:28else's point of view and so you know
21:31that's where you know the harmony of the
21:34group you know needs to be adjusted
21:36sometimes and so sometimes what do you
21:37when you do the coffee shop thing you
21:39can you can see if this this person is
21:41going to be bullying and trying to shop
21:43or or if someone who's actually going to
21:46to really participate you know in the
21:48way you would want to from whatever it
21:50is that you're trying to establish yeah
21:52I would say almost you always you have
21:53to meet the advisers that is given and
21:57you have to spend some time with them
22:00is through introductions so you may not
22:03know the person from before I'm also
22:06another thing just I think back to what
22:08Alex said what is it that you want to
22:10accomplish so in one case we needed
22:12expertise around security and it was
22:16from different domains so in terms of
22:20thinking about the composition it was
22:22not just okay go and get whichever
22:23security expert you can find but it was
22:25how do you get security experts who have
22:28worked in different domains maybe the
22:29financial industry maybe the healthcare
22:31industry and they bring in different
22:33perspectives and so the board then has a
22:37balance for what you are trying to go
22:39after him are there were there any may
22:45be open for any of you unexpected
22:49outcomes things that you might change
22:51going forward like what did you you know
22:54maybe what do you learn and how would
22:57you how might you do things differently
22:58given the advice here I would say one
23:03unexpected outcome on the positive side
23:05yeah you come up with great friendships
23:07you over the course the advisors become
23:10friends of not only the company but also
23:13you make personal friends the other
23:15thing is on a positive side unexpected
23:18outcome that was not the stated goal
23:20many of them ended up getting getting
23:23giving referrals to other deals as well
23:29as really helped in some of the hiring
23:32decisions I didn't I that was not my
23:34stated goal at all but we were looking
23:36for some technical experts and they had
23:40access to the pool and we didn't even
23:43think of asking the team but it was just
23:45at the end of a meeting we're saying
23:46okay we have a problem here and then the
23:48advisory board sent us recommendations
23:51of people that we were able to hire yeah
23:54Alex were there either of you for me you
23:59know what was what was really cool about
24:01the board and just the people that I was
24:03lucky enough to get on it is yeah not
24:06not just getting technical advice out of
24:09them but but they also became in their
24:12own ways mentors for me in certain
24:15yes Oh wasn't always about technical
24:17opinions you know these guys had all
24:19traveled down the path that I was going
24:21down before me and so yeah things like
24:24like how do i do orc structures you know
24:27I've got a group of people that all want
24:29the same title but then I've got another
24:30group of people that that want to be
24:32promoted to principal engineer and
24:34architect and and you know I don't even
24:36know if I want an architect role what
24:38did you guys do at Facebook and Google
24:39and you know stuff like that that's not
24:42really the role of a technical advisory
24:44board but super important conversation
24:47to have as you're scaling a company you
24:48know 10x you know within a short period
24:50of time and trying to keep a culture
24:51intact and and so you know having having
24:54someone that I can actually do a
24:56heart-to-heart with around some of those
24:57things was really really important I
24:59find it was interesting how you know you
25:02try some things which at the time seemed
25:04right and then you learn in retrospect
25:05they weren't right and you learn from it
25:07and then you oftentimes forget that you
25:10once didn't know that so actually if
25:11sometimes when the meetings that I felt
25:14best about actually feel like you can be
25:15very helpful by just sharing like hey
25:18here's a stupid thing I did at the time
25:19that the time seemed reasonable
25:21and I think you're about to do that
25:23thing and you can explain it and I would
25:29second the thing about hiring I mean
25:30everyone good I know of course I try to
25:32hire a twitter you know certain size
25:36company they're bigger companies smaller
25:38companies and it's not the right fit for
25:39everyone and so I'll often refer either
25:40people I was trying to hire or people
25:43that have just left because it's been
25:44years and years and they want to go do
25:45something else and no oh no they want to
25:48go somewhere else I'm like happy to send
25:49a people around to other places so I
25:51think it's probably the mmm it's
25:53interesting you had the same experience
25:54about hiring guys because I mean one
25:56expected ol beat yeah it was fantastic
26:01how do you think maybe from a CEO
26:04perspective versus a VP of engineering
26:07perspective like how do how do each of
26:10those different folks view a technical
26:13advisory board maybe you know how do you
26:16normalize that that's the CEO typically
26:18go to the technical advisory board
26:19meeting is it the VP of engineering and
26:21what do you think each expects out of it
26:24in that sense I guess there are
26:27in listening to you I realized there I
26:29think even the Technical Advisory Board
26:31can have multiple flavors and so the
26:36situation where I talked about where
26:38there was a customer advisory board and
26:39there was also technical advisory board
26:41within the same company from a CEO
26:43perspective the customer advisory board
26:46the biggest one is validation of the
26:47problem statement especially you're
26:49building a company you have a you you
26:52want to lay out okay this is the pain
26:54point I'm trying to solve it's this real
26:56well it resonate with you will you pay
26:57if I build this will you pay if I build
27:00an extra set of features and so on that
27:02is where direction as well as I would
27:06say I would not be shy even presenting
27:09marketing materials to them because they
27:12are going to be the ultimate consumers
27:13but on the technical side it's not just
27:16for engineering I found it was very
27:18valuable for the product management
27:20socks because these decisions that you
27:24make on architecture should ok I'm going
27:27to put it on a SAS and do multi-tenancy
27:28how should we do that and should we have
27:31separate data structures or should we
27:32just do it all pooled has huge
27:34implications on the other requirements
27:38that you may have so having product
27:40management team I've always had product
27:42management team also drive some of these
27:44meetings or any of what were the carrot
27:51what are the characteristics of the best
27:53tabbed member that you've ever worked
27:54with other than Alex being able to
28:03quickly grasp the context of the problem
28:07right and so you know there's 10-minute
28:09rule I think is a good one so yet
28:10they're coming in cold you know they
28:12don't understand the six months of
28:13conversations that have gone on the
28:15halls or you know in front of
28:17whiteboards so you got to give them some
28:18context so the best ones will will get
28:21the context and pattern recognition and
28:24pattern match against you know a problem
28:25that they've seen in the past and then
28:27more importantly have had some
28:29experience to say like Alex was saying
28:34hey you're about to do something really
28:36stupid I've actually done that stupid
28:39thing and it worked out this way and
28:41is how not to repeat that and so the
28:44board members who can actually
28:45articulate that in a way that fosters
28:49debate but then gives clarity into a
28:52direction or down a direction to get to
28:55an answer you are the most most valuable
28:57ones so the ones who sit there just
29:00ingesting information but never giving
29:02back in your energy or the ones that you
29:07know just end up being somewhat useless
29:09yeah yeah okay and Alex what's you
29:14mentioned wanting to help the company as
29:15being you know your interest what's the
29:18other you know maybe some other values
29:20of being a technical advisory board
29:23member though to the advisor to the
29:26advice I mean I personally find it
29:27interesting you mean smart people that
29:29are working on different problems it's
29:31nice to feel like you can occasionally
29:32be useful stuff that you did I mean
29:39those are the those are the I mean smart
29:42people I think that kind of maybe the
29:43flip side of the question asked him I
29:44think the best arrangements are when the
29:48company should Supra not too formal
29:50about it just really honest about what
29:51what they're instead of oh I have a
29:53technical visor II board meeting next
29:55week oh shoot I have to think of an
29:57agenda and now it's a to-do item I think
29:59the more it's just around I'm stuck on X
30:01today so I want to go talk to some
30:02people that trust about X and it can be
30:04right down the middle of what a
30:05technical advisory board is for or it
30:07can be a little you know you mentioned
30:09product management or it can be around
30:10well you know we just promoted an
30:13engineer to be the VP of engineering and
30:16so they've never done management before
30:17so how do you help with this case or I
30:19think just the more it's about
30:20real-world things that they're
30:21struggling with the more you can
30:22actually be useful yeah how do you
30:24compensate a technical advisor
30:27yeah so for me it was pretty straight
30:31forward I just gave a stock option
30:35package that was equivalent to a
30:37seasoned engineer and you know put my
30:41board together pretty early on in boxes
30:43like so is a being a pretty reasonable
30:46package at the end of it all but it was
30:49I think a three year vesting period so
30:52accelerated over you
30:54what was generally a four-year investing
30:55so is all stock option based okay equity
30:58based I did the same old stock option
31:01after option based except I did a
31:02two-year term which I talked to you
31:05before that two-year term and then
31:07renewed okay again I say the same thing
31:09okay how I've seen quite a quite often
31:14when I've setup customer advisory boards
31:16which may be slightly different
31:18all your advisors work at companies and
31:20often there's an ethical dilemma of like
31:23if they're a potential customer and I
31:26pay them stock options and I want them
31:29to use my product like it's you know one
31:32hand feeds the other and it's a little
31:33bit of a bribe and you know then they
31:35want them to go and recommend the
31:37company to investors and blow up you
31:39know I mean that's what happens so you
31:43know how do you sort of deal with that
31:44and if a company doesn't allow I don't
31:48you know if a company may not allow it
31:50how do you get around that or do you
31:52just say no you know we're not going to
31:54do it I mean kind of maybe just speak to
31:56some of the potential ethical pitfalls
31:58there yeah I have had a few situations
32:00like that yeah and you have to be
32:04careful to fold so one is a simple
32:07situation where you can you want someone
32:09as an advisor they may go and ask their
32:12company and so my example was I was
32:14trying to bring COO moon who's from
32:17Intel on the board and Intel has a very
32:22strict policy that you cannot accept
32:24anything so after a lot of back and
32:26forth she still wanted to be on the
32:28board and for my advice but had to sign
32:31an agreement with Intel and we had to
32:32sign an agreement with Intel that in no
32:34shape or form we will become
32:35compensating her with any stock okay
32:38that's one form of but that was kind of
32:41something that when she ended up serving
32:44on the board yes I mean put tracers
32:46basically for free okay
32:48the second one is a very interesting one
32:52that you brought up which is someone
32:54might sign on as the advisory board
32:55member but let us say you actually want
32:59to sign that company on as a customer
33:01right right of course it can really hurt
33:04you because it has happened to me once
33:07as an advisor and then when the Conway
33:10were we and we had a completely separate
33:12sale so the advisor wasn't really in
33:14part of the approval chain but when it
33:17went to procurement they came back and
33:19said you have this person on the
33:21advisory board we you cannot do the deal
33:24with us Wow so be very careful so now
33:27actually the third time around when I
33:29did it when I wanted some some of the
33:33advice of them as advisors some some
33:34folks I had as informal advisor still I
33:36sold at you once I sold the deal then I
33:38brought them off on as a formal advisor
33:40because having gone through that so
33:43those are the two variations and maybe
33:47just a you know along these lines you're
33:49on some of these boards do you ever find
33:53that the company along this ethical sort
33:56of boundary the company is asking you to
33:58promote the company too much relative to
34:01sort of what's really happening I mean
34:04do you get into like that weird sort of
34:05you know like young companies they have
34:08a series an investment round coming up
34:10and they're like hey Alex you know like
34:12the investors are gonna call you so we'd
34:14be happy for you to give us like a great
34:16story you know I haven't had that happen
34:18to me I mean I would just be upfront I
34:26mean there's first time an adviser and I
34:28mean generally people don't do these
34:30things for the money I mean I just be
34:37like look here's my relationship with
34:39the company here's what I think about
34:40the kabocha just front and the way that
34:42you know you all probably you guys get
34:44reference calls and yeah I'm not every
34:45reference call you or get is for ya you
34:48know the best person who ever known
34:49write one of those so you know you just
34:51like handle it you don't you don't lie
34:53either way but okay yeah I would say you
34:56know all the people that were on on my
34:58board we're doing it for the money they
35:00would have done it for free you know it
35:02was a conflict of interest and you know
35:04I would say 60% to 70% of them came to
35:09me after you know each one of these like
35:12oh this is like the best you know four
35:14hours of Micra quarter because I get to
35:17actually be out of the operational
35:19and just craziness that I'm in and see
35:21what-what someone I don't have to live
35:22with the consequences of everything I'm
35:24talking about duality right what what's
35:34going on and who's getting what out of
35:36it yeah well thanks you guys
