00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nc podcast
00:03I'm sonal and I'm here today with two
00:05special guests and we are gonna be
00:07talking about technology and policy and
00:10joining us for that discussion are Julie
00:12Samuels who is the executive director of
00:14engine a non-profit advocacy and
00:17research that supports the work of
00:18startups and Mike Masnick who is a
00:20founder and editor-in-chief of really
00:22popular tech policy and Beyond site
00:24Techdirt as well as the president of the
00:27copia institute sort of a think-tank
00:29focus on policy and technology welcome
00:32thanks for having us
00:33yeah thanks so we thought we'd do just
00:36sort of a whirlwind tour through all
00:39kinds of tech and policy issues because
00:41we only have like a limited amount of
00:42time so let's just go through a bunch of
00:44them and the reason we'd like to do this
00:46is because you know I feel like we
00:48sometimes have specific things dedicated
00:50to just one topic but we have here two
00:52people who have been immersed on these
00:54issues across the board and so I can't
00:56think of any two people I'm more
00:57interested in sharing this podcast with
00:59to talk about all these topics and I
01:01guess the first question you know just
01:03kick things off because it's really
01:04conversation between you guys is what's
01:08happening now like why now like Mike
01:10you've been it do you detect you find a
01:12Tector 20 years ago and Julie like
01:14engine I know has been around but you
01:16went there for a specific reason like
01:17what's what's happening to bring all
01:19this stuff on like is this new I don't
01:21think it's that it's new I think it's a
01:23couple things number one tech companies
01:25are getting a lot bigger so they're not
01:27flying under the radar of government
01:29anymore oh that's because they're
01:30getting bigger right and and number two
01:33government is paying attention to tech
01:35companies so those aren't actually two
01:37separate things it's two sides of the
01:38same coin but but you know this is trite
01:42but in a lot of ways every company is a
01:44tech company and everyone uses tech and
01:46so policy regulation legislation like
01:51all of these things are unavoidable
01:53yeah and I think I think that second
01:55point is the key one which is that
01:56everything is tech now and so the idea
01:59that and that goes both ways right so
02:01everything that's being regulated in
02:03some ways touches on technology and
02:05everything that technology is doing is
02:06touching on all different areas of the
02:08economy that involve policy and so the
02:12two things are totally connected
02:13and also you know to some extent
02:16historically you know what people think
02:18of as the tech industry or the startup
02:19ecosystem or whatever hasn't been all
02:22that engaged necessarily on policy
02:24issues and so you know historical
02:27clashes on policy issues have gone weird
02:32and so I think in the you know in the
02:35last few years you know people have
02:38gotten a lot more engaged because it's
02:40more important for them to actually
02:42so when you say engage like what exactly
02:44do you guys mean by engaged cuz I'm
02:45seeing all flavors of like straight-up
02:47fights to to actually people having
02:50lobbyists to there's a whole range of
02:52things like what do you guys mean by
02:53engaging there are all those things
02:56there is the kind of engagement where
02:58you have individuals sending emails or
03:00tweeting at members of Congress saying
03:02you know we we saw that a lot during
03:04SOPA during that neutrality went when
03:06the users and the consumers got involved
03:08but you also see sorry to interrupt you
03:11for a second you mind telling our
03:12audience just really quickly what oh but
03:13of course those not familiar the acronym
03:15it was something that both Mike and I
03:17worked on Stop Online Privacy Act it was
03:19a bill from 2010 right 2010 yeah 2011
03:262011 a copyright ostensibly a copyright
03:29bill that that was kind of put out
03:31largely by the content you know the
03:33movie and and the recording industry too
03:37under the rubric of stopping a copyright
03:41infringement but what we really thought
03:43was it was bad news for the internet and
03:44it was something it was one of the first
03:46times that the Internet community really
03:48coalesced around something and and
03:50stopped it he might remember an internet
03:52blackout day January 2011 and that was a
03:56really important moment for this
03:58industry and for this community and then
04:01we had the net neutrality fight earlier
04:02this year but again it was a time when
04:05the users when individuals four million
04:07individuals reached out to make their
04:10voice heard on that so that's one that's
04:11one level of involvement right but of
04:13course you also have hiring lobbyists
04:15like you said a lot of companies are now
04:17opening offices government affairs
04:21offices where they do their own lobbying
04:22you have a lot of individuals in our
04:24community giving heavily to candidates
04:27that's another way of involvement and
04:28and we're just becoming more integrated
04:30with this process and that's fairly new
04:32so that's one of the things that you say
04:34is changing because what you just
04:35described all those toolkits like being
04:37able to you know do email campaigns
04:39motivate people grassroots efforts
04:41organize these are things that have been
04:43forms that have been around forever but
04:45like how has that changed because I know
04:48you were mentioning that some of this
04:49has been changing over time one of the
04:51things that as was different about sort
04:55of these two campaigns in particular was
04:57that these were generally speaking these
05:00were the kinds of issues that
05:01historically the public didn't weigh in
05:03on these were issues that were heavily
05:06lobbied and whatever decisions were made
05:09were made by big corporate interests and
05:12their lobbyists and in both of these
05:15cases you had real you know public
05:19activism getting people to get engaged
05:23and to speak out and to do things on
05:24their websites or to get others engaged
05:27which i think was actually a really
05:28important part of it that it wasn't just
05:30about speaking out to you know you know
05:33emailing or calling DC but it was often
05:35using the tools that that people had
05:38with in the tech industry themselves to
05:40engage their users and engage others and
05:42get them involved and you had this point
05:45where you had two things that that
05:48basically if you had asked anyone who
05:50was sort of deeply engaged on these
05:52issues if you'd asked us beforehand if
05:54there was any chance to stop something
05:55like SOPA or to stop bad net neutrality
05:59rules it seemed unlikely because these
06:02were the things that you didn't stop
06:04because you had really really powerful
06:05interests with strong lobbyists on one
06:07side and yet because enough people were
06:11able to get engaged and speak out it
06:13actually it it really did change things
06:16in a way that was different than before
06:18that didn't involve you know just like
06:20two giant industry's lobbying up against
06:22each other but actually real people
06:25engaging I think that's another
06:27interesting evolution actually because
06:28you're also describing more people
06:30getting involved because of the forum is
06:31an engagement available to them but
06:33there's also this reality is what you
06:35guys are saying about tech permeating
06:37everything now or everything is a tech
06:39I don't think that's a trite statement
06:41at all Julie because I think that's
06:42actually very true and because of that
06:44just wait until your toaster tells you
06:47to I think the point is that the
06:51products are touching our lives every
06:52day and so and I think it's actually
06:54harder for companies who are more b2b
06:56and whose products do not reach
06:58everyone's lives every day
06:59that's exactly right you are talking
07:01about people who are Internet users we
07:04actually recently I live in New York now
07:06and recently there was a bill that the
07:09mayor mayor de Blasio was pushing that
07:10had to do with uber and other
07:12ride-sharing companies and I'm sure a
07:14lot of listeners might have followed
07:16that but essentially what we saw
07:18happened was people kind of I think they
07:20felt like their uber was being
07:22so they got involved right the same
07:24thing with net neutrality with SOPA
07:25people use the Internet every day they
07:28felt like their internet was being
07:29threatened they got involved a lot more
07:32so than they do with some other
07:33political issues that you might follow
07:35that don't really touch what we think of
07:37as traditional tech so I think this
07:39stuff that's kind of consumer and user
07:41facing really resonates with folks and
07:43even even the business-to-business stuff
07:44actually can resonate perhaps not as
07:47strongly not in the way that you're
07:48going to get as big a response but like
07:50you know for example you know there was
07:53a fight not too long ago which I think
07:57just got settled actually I think I got
07:59an email like a couple hours ago between
08:01zenefits and ADP where they got into a
08:06big dispute over you know payroll issues
08:10which again this is not a consumer issue
08:12it's very much a business-to-business
08:13issue but it was another situation where
08:16was definitely sort of an old-line
08:17business upset about the way in which a
08:21newer startup was competing and went to
08:24court over it and it was a mess but it
08:27got a lot of news and you know that
08:29wasn't a case necessarily where people
08:31were were protesting but you know if you
08:34make enough get enough media coverage
08:36things will happen and actually you know
08:38with zenefits they had a similar thing
08:41that they just had this dispute with
08:43with ADP but before that they had a
08:45dispute with the state of Utah that's
08:47right we actually covered that in a 6nz
08:48podcast one of the things that Parker
08:50said that I thought was fascinating
08:53that they had originally gone in trying
08:55to show do demos of their technology and
08:58it was a big mindset shift for them to
09:00realize that you actually have to tell
09:01the broader story the context in which
09:03this is all playing out I think these
09:05things are actually really important for
09:07the entire community when you see those
09:08kinds of battles with zenefits and Utah
09:11ultimately prevails it was great but
09:13when you see also Boober and lyft and
09:15Airbnb and and these stories are in the
09:18news you're also reminding people how
09:20regulation how government plays right so
09:23so people are paying attention to policy
09:26in a way they haven't before because
09:27these companies have no choice but to
09:29engage with policy makers and it's
09:31making news every day I mean one of the
09:34interesting aspects of that is I think
09:35that a lot of people perhaps for very
09:37good reasons were very very cynical
09:39about the political process for many
09:41years because it was you know their
09:44ability to impact it was was was
09:46basically nil and yet in the last few
09:48years we've seen so many of these
09:50examples where speaking out and actually
09:52getting engaged has made a difference
09:54that I'm hoping that it actually takes
09:58away some of the cynicism towards
09:59policymaking and what goes into it and
10:01the ability of you know everyday people
10:05to actually have an impact on what
10:06happens well don't you think that's been
10:08the case so far I think that's actually
10:10playing out yeah well I mean there's
10:12still there's still a fair amount of
10:13cynicism but I but I do think that that
10:16people are now much more willing to
10:19believe that they can they can make a
10:20difference that's actually one of the
10:21things that I loved about what Ted said
10:23about regulatory capture because my
10:25original impression of the phrase
10:26regulatory capture was that it's all
10:28about rent extraction and it's just like
10:30you know but what I realized what he
10:32described was something softer that it's
10:34about familiarity with the processes the
10:36hallways how things work getting people
10:38to understand you know what's at stake
10:40and the relationships and sort of how to
10:42navigate that and you're describing like
10:45a lot more avenues for people to start
10:46like communicating with those players
10:48which that's that's a really interesting
10:50point this is something I engage in DC
10:53with policymakers a lot this is
10:54something I spend a lot of time thinking
10:55about I don't have the right answer but
10:57you have imagine a spectrum right and at
10:59one end of the spectrum you have
11:00industries who've been engaging in DC
11:03with policy makers and state capitals
11:06entrenched interests tell-tell companies
11:10telcos pharmaceutical industry they've
11:14been there for bazillion years at the
11:16other end of the spectrum I think you
11:17see these kind of quote/unquote
11:20stereotypical tech companies startups
11:22and they're they're like we don't need
11:23to engage at all we're gonna build our
11:25thing and it's gonna change the world
11:27and I don't think either of those paths
11:29is the path of the future I think that
11:32there's something in the middle and we
11:33haven't quite figured out what it is but
11:36there's something in the middle where
11:37people are going to feel comfortable and
11:38feel productive and be able to engage
11:40because they know the way the world
11:42works and you know if anyone's got ideas
11:45let me know and I agree totally I think
11:48you know one of the things you know if
11:52if it turns out that the tech industry
11:54that the answer for them and policy
11:55questions is to build up a giant
11:57lobbying set up an apparatus in the
12:00nature of like the telcos and the
12:01pharmaceuticals and in a number of other
12:03industries then I think the tech
12:06why do you say failed because this is an
12:08industry of folks who are super
12:09innovative and always thinking through
12:11new and creative solutions and the
12:13ability to use communications tools and
12:15new and interesting ways and to gather
12:17people in to build communities and to
12:19make an impact in all different fields
12:21to then go into the political and policy
12:24making process and to go back to the old
12:27tired broken way of doing things which
12:29is this you know this lobbying set up
12:31that would be a failure there's there's
12:33no reason why that should be the answer
12:35to what this industry does when it comes
12:37to actually influencing policy making
12:39that's not to say that there should be
12:41no lobbyists and there should be no
12:42understanding of what happens in DC or
12:44that it should be totally ignored that's
12:46not what I'm saying but I agree with
12:48Julie that there's a there's a different
12:49way to do things and it's about actually
12:51engaging people on the issues as opposed
12:53to just like knowing which strings to
12:55pull and and who to give the most money
12:57to I actually agree with that I think
12:58we're all saying the same thing because
12:59I think that we agree that there's a
13:01middle way a third way we agree that
13:03there's you know it would be a failure
13:06to only reinforce an existing system but
13:09at the same time there has to be a
13:11little mutual give-and-take and I think
13:12that in that context it is important to
13:14think about engaging in you in different
13:16ways yeah I totally agree that's real I
13:18mean that part that parts one the
13:20it's saying to people that you know
13:23there's a game that's played and you
13:24have to play some version of it but it's
13:26going to be a better newer version
13:28really hard to under it's really hard to
13:30get your head around what right well and
13:32it's a game that you're changing the
13:33rules as you go along I mean it's not
13:35like it's easier to do that as we talk
13:37about you know and I think we'll get
13:40into some of these specific issues that
13:42are kind of bouncing around right now I
13:43think people understand there have been
13:45some victories there have been some
13:46losses and as you take a step back and
13:49think about those things you can kind of
13:50start to create a framework to
13:52understand what's working and what isn't
13:55and why you know this is definitely a
13:57lot of the way that we have been
13:59thinking about things in terms of how
14:00we're we've been setting up copia which
14:01is very much about you know how do we
14:03search for ways to help you know
14:07entrepreneurs and the tech industry be
14:09innovative in how they deal with policy
14:11makers and that isn't about like you
14:13know telling them that you have to go
14:15lobby this person or whatever but
14:17actually to work together to come up
14:19with interesting and unique solutions
14:20that actually you know that engage their
14:23innovative brains you know and ideas and
14:26let them do what they do best which is
14:28innovate as opposed to just you know
14:30having to convince you know what would
14:32however many members of Congress to do X
14:34or Y that's that's just you know that's
14:37not a process that's exciting actually
14:38coming up with something innovative that
14:40is a real solution to things and let me
14:42kind of pile on there for a second
14:43there's something that I think is really
14:45interesting and exciting about this
14:47community and that when we talk about
14:49politics in particular and it's that
14:50this community is not kind of wedded to
14:54traditional political parties in a way
14:56that a lot of people are like I really
14:58believe that most people you meet in
15:00this tech community particularly in the
15:02startup community are looking for the
15:04best ideas from the best candidate from
15:06the best policymaker whomever and they
15:09don't care if that person is a
15:10Republican or a Democrat they probably
15:12prefer that person we're an independent
15:15yeah and and that's I mean when you look
15:16at at most of these debates right
15:19they haven't fallen along traditional
15:21party lines and that's actually been so
15:23good because you know for the most part
15:25the debates are much more on the issues
15:28much more about substance you know when
15:30they start to get partisan they start to
15:34and you just get all these you know
15:35ridiculous things being thrown about I
15:37think that's much more useful and again
15:40it just fits with exactly what really
15:42were saying which is that these these
15:43aren't you know traditional fights and
15:46that actually allows for more innovation
15:47in terms of how you know how they're
15:49dealt with and frankly for those of us
15:51who work in this space it's a lot more
15:52fun so actually then let's switch gears
15:54and let's do a set of lightning rounds
15:56around all the issues that we think are
15:59kind of interesting in top-of-mind and
16:01let's talk about patents because that is
16:04just you know let's just start there
16:06because that's actually the three of us
16:07came together at the patent conference a
16:09few years ago and that was a lot of fun
16:12I remember Richard Stallman standing up
16:13in the back and sort of making a
16:17statement but anyway I remember him
16:19walking through the audience yelling at
16:20people all right if you could just
16:26quickly distill what you think the major
16:28issue is as it applies to software this
16:29one is near and dear to my heart I think
16:31that if you were to distill the problem
16:34in kind of a couple sentences it's that
16:37we have a one-size-fits-all system so we
16:39treat patents in the pharmaceutical
16:41industry the same as in the software
16:43industry and that ends up making no
16:44sense economically it doesn't make sense
16:46conceptually it doesn't make sense I can
16:49talk a lot about this I'm not gonna do
16:51it in a lightning round but what that
16:53has kind of created is that we've got a
16:55system that works pretty well for pharma
16:58and doesn't work well at all for
17:00software and why doesn't it work well
17:02for software like how would you just
17:03steal that well so number one a patent
17:05covers 20 years and for most the people
17:08listening I think they don't understand
17:09that talking about 20 years of
17:11exclusivity for a software invention is
17:13crazy right the average smartphone is
17:15covered by 250,000 patents the average
17:19drug by 30 or 40 patents so when it
17:23starts a bignum that's a big difference
17:24right digging through what we're talking
17:26about here so what that's led to is
17:28people who abuse the system which is you
17:30know I'm making air quotes here a pretty
17:32big patent troll problem they go after
17:34big tech companies and no one really
17:36cares because that is just you know not
17:38all that interesting but they started
17:40going after small companies startups
17:42individuals and we had a big patent
17:45so that's kind of where we are
17:46Congress has been dealing with this for
17:48some time but we've kind of ended up in
17:50a traditional farmer versus tech
17:54loggerhead and it's it's kind of created
17:58a situation where things have slowed
18:00down on Capitol Hill we can't officially
18:02say we can't I should say we've had a
18:03hard time coming up with a political
18:05solution yeah it's a little bit
18:08stagnated and so I'm gonna argue against
18:10that a little bit which is that like I
18:12agree I that that software patents are a
18:16complete disaster and a complete mess
18:17and need to be fixed and the one other
18:20element that I'd add to it beyond the
18:2120-year thing is the just the you know
18:24talk to any engineer and show them a
18:26patent and ask them what it's about and
18:28they won't even be able to tell you
18:29because the patents are written by
18:31lawyers not by engineers and it's just
18:32junk it's got nothing to do with what
18:35the actual innovation is and so you have
18:38this very broad language but I'm going
18:40to take it a step further and say that
18:41you know I actually am not convinced
18:44that the patents work in other
18:46industries all that well either I think
18:48it's much more pronounced in the
18:49software industry and in the Internet
18:51industry because of you know how many
18:53patents are on how many patent fights
18:54there are I think I'm not going to go
18:56all the way down into why why I think
18:59they don't necessarily work in
18:59pharmaceuticals either but I think that
19:01you know based on that I'd love to see a
19:03solution that really gets to the heart
19:05of the the problem with the overall
19:07patent system which is around looking at
19:11what is and what is not considered
19:12obvious and whether or not you can allow
19:16something such as independent invention
19:17I think you would wipe out so many of
19:20the problems of the patent system if you
19:23had a real independent invention defense
19:25which is that if you you know if you're
19:28just tinkering in your garage and you
19:30come up with something you had no idea
19:31that some weird vague patent existed
19:34from you know 15 years ago the
19:37somebody's gonna sue you over you should
19:38be able to go in and say look I didn't
19:40copy this I had no idea that this weird
19:42patent existed because you just did it
19:45right I had an idea to innovate this guy
19:48sitting on a patent hasn't done anything
19:49I've actually built something you know
19:51right it's actually similar to startups
19:52because one quick thing there is like
19:54when you when you think about people
19:55doing prior art searches before they
19:57even start inventing or creating
20:00thinking now about a startup who has a
20:02great idea thinking oh my god well this
20:03has all been done before so forget it
20:04I'm not gonna do anything and the best
20:06companies were actually started in
20:07spaces where it was very crowded Oh
20:09totally yeah I also want to talk about
20:14this this is relevant to copyright to
20:16what we're really talking about is how
20:18as a society and as an economy we
20:20incentivize innovation right and yes and
20:22how we do that is really hard and I
20:24shouldn't say it's not really hard to
20:26incentivize innovation how we kind of
20:28measure that is really hard I think that
20:31by default the white house does is
20:33everyone does this we say we are an
20:35innovative nation and we can prove it
20:36because we have X number of patents and
20:38every company does that - like IBM I've
20:42talked about this a whole bunch that we
20:44have something we have something that
20:46you can count and therefore you it
20:48becomes inevitable that that becomes a
20:50metric and the best examples - how
20:52ridiculous that is is that go look at
20:55China right China has been ramping up
20:56the number of patents that they've been
20:58they've been filing you know like crazy
21:00and so you know there have been some who
21:03have taken that number and said like oh
21:05look you know now China is being super
21:06innovative and I'm not saying they're
21:07they're not being super innovative but
21:09then you start looking at those patents
21:10and for a while and I this may still be
21:13the case like China was incentivizing
21:15people in their prisons that they would
21:17give them shorter prison sentences if
21:19they were able to file patents so it's
21:21just all this numbers thing and then you
21:23look at like all of the big patent
21:26lawsuits in China which you know for
21:27years the US especially has been pushing
21:30for like you know we have to get China
21:32to respect patent laws because they're
21:34copying everything so they have to rush
21:36by patent laws and so China is like okay
21:38well we'll do that and we'll ramp up our
21:40patent enforcement and our patent laws
21:42and then you look at all the cases and
21:44every single patent case in China has
21:46been a Chinese firm against a foreign
21:49firm and guess who always wins
21:50and so China has realized that patents
21:53are form of protectionism and it's a
21:55neat form of protectionism for China
21:57because they can use that to block
21:58competition from foreign firms while
22:01pretending that they're doing exactly
22:02what the US has been asking them for
22:04it's just I mean one of many examples of
22:07how patents and the property can be used
22:10for protectionism and where the the
22:13numbers in terms of number of patents
22:15that you get is is it not just a
22:16meaningless number but it's a it's a
22:18misleading number I think it's actually
22:20led to a really dangerous culture in the
22:22valley and and in tech companies in
22:24general where there's this pressure to
22:26get as many patents as possible as
22:27quickly as possible and then what you
22:29end up with is a bunch of really crappy
22:31patents and those patents end up in the
22:33hands of bad actors and that's how you
22:35have a system that's been exploited and
22:37and I don't know how to fix that culture
22:38that kind of the core of the problem I
22:40actually don't even know if I agree
22:42Julia that that's a culture because I
22:43actually think a lot of the engineers
22:45and computer scientists are coming out
22:47of universities these days don't kind of
22:50really give a about patents ma
22:51they're just fine with it so there's
22:54there's two issues one is that you have
22:55lawyers who tell you that you absolutely
22:57have to get patents and then you know
22:59you have some venture capitalists who
23:01also tells startup entrepreneurs that
23:03that is you know one of the first things
23:04you have to do and if you're showing up
23:06at a meeting you have to have pens and
23:08there there are some you know venture
23:10capitalists who I think are more
23:11enlightened on that than others but you
23:14know for plenty of entrepreneurs you
23:17hear them say like well when I go and
23:18get an investment the first thing that
23:19I'm asked about is you know whether or
23:21not I have a patent on I think the
23:22origin of that is about the moats for
23:24your business and being able to protect
23:25it and the reality is that for a lot of
23:27software businesses you can build a moat
23:28through other methods like network
23:30effects oh that's so much more important
23:31as Network effects the first thing you
23:33should be doing is making sure that you
23:34have an audience and and and a market
23:36and and focusing on that and the moats
23:38come naturally with all this right well
23:40that's a network effects because stick
23:46around mean the only thing that patents
23:47really do is protect you on the downside
23:49and if you're protecting on the downside
23:50at the beginning you've again I think
23:52you've just done something wrong I'm
23:53glad to hear you guys talk about this
23:54because you're taking actually much more
23:55nuanced approaches that I had envisioned
23:57because I actually do believe you know
24:00having edited those freaking 35 effects
24:03or maybe it was 40 I don't even remember
24:04but oh my god that it's a very nuanced
24:08and complex topic agreed it is a problem
24:11but I also think it's completely unfair
24:14for other players who sometimes say ban
24:16all patents because I actually think
24:17they can be very useful in other
24:19scenarios and there's a lot of
24:20alternative arrangements as well I don't
24:23think either of us a blow up the entire
24:24patent system I would
24:26but I actually is someone who is a
24:28patent lawyer as well I actually think
24:30we are doing a disservice to the system
24:33by allowing it to continue in this
24:35broken fashion instead of really
24:37protecting again we need to like take a
24:39step back think about what it is we're
24:41trying to incentivize here as a society
24:43think about what it is we're trying to
24:45create and if we have a better tailored
24:47system to do that it will also actually
24:49serve that system and we're not doing
24:52yeah totally and I would say I mean III
24:54might feel pretty strongly that no
24:57patent system would probably be better
24:59than the patent system that we have
25:00today but that doesn't mean that no
25:02patent system is the ideal situation but
25:05I think that you know what we have today
25:07is totally broken and as Julie said I
25:08mean it leads to just no respect at all
25:10for patent system because it doesn't
25:12deserve it there are other ways to
25:14incentivize innovation network effects
25:18but there are other pieces too like
25:20government sponsoring RNG prizes Awards
25:25there are other things we can decide to
25:26do as a society that will push people to
25:29create and build things and and and just
25:32that I mean you know taking a step back
25:33right I mean the thing that that
25:35incentivizes most people to create stuff
25:37is not patents it's usually either that
25:39they have a personal need themselves and
25:41realize like this would be useful I can
25:43make it for myself and therefore I can
